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Re: S17 and 18 thoughts?

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:21 pm
by Mike
Rob Filth wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:12 pm
Mike wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:44 am
Also Tom clearly doesn't give a flying fuck in Fendahl, but I'll let him off, because he'd just been forced to star in the fucking Invisible Enemy which is as shite as they get.

Until Underworld. Fuck me. I've had more exciting shits.
The production order in Season 15 was a bit weird, in fact "Invisible Enemy" was made first, directly after "Talons of Weng Chiang", the production order was as follows:

Invisible Enemy
Horror Of Fang Rock
The Sun Makers
Image of the Fendahl
Underworld
Invasion Of Time

So, given how Tom Bakers acting starts to take a bit of a slide during the end of The Sun Makers, I think it holds up quite well again during Image of the Fendahl which was made afterwards, by the next story in production order Underworld he's acting increasingly disinterested/bored and by the final story Invasion of Time, after the initial first few episodes, he's acting like a complete cunt which he does consistently all the way through to Shada (bar one scene in Pirate Planet) before JNT reigns him in again.
I didn't know that, that's really interesting.

I wonder if what I'm detecting in Fendahl is Tom's belligerence at having to deal with not only a relatively new companion in Leela, but also a new producer.

He's also, all of a sudden, found himself the veteran of the show, hasn't he? Alongside, say, Dudley Simpson.

Re: S17 and 18 thoughts?

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:25 pm
by Rob Filth
Mike wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:21 pm
I didn't know that, that's really interesting.

I wonder if what I'm detecting in Fendahl is Tom's belligerence at having to deal with not only a relatively new companion in Leela, but also a new producer.

He's also, all of a sudden, found himself the veteran of the show, hasn't he? Alongside, say, Dudley Simpson.
Fendahl would've actually been his 6th story in production with Louise Jameson, if anything they've got more of a rapport (he does end up lying on top of her during one scene in the story don't forget, I bet he put in a good few thrusts off camera too, the dirty sod!)

I do think Tom is just going through the motions in the story however, he doesn't look as bored as he is during Underworld which was the next story in production, but he's certainly lacking urgency, energy and zest in the story.

Re: S17 and 18 thoughts?

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:33 pm
by Mike
You know, it says something that even a story as turgidly shit as 'Underworld' has something going for it in the Greek mythology intrigue.

NuPu can't even manage that. Its shit is just shit.

Re: S17 and 18 thoughts?

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:49 pm
by Rob Filth
Rob Filth wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:25 pm
Fendahl would've actually been his 6th story in production with Louise Jameson, if anything they've got more of a rapport (he does end up lying on top of her during one scene in the story don't forget, I bet he put in a good few thrusts off camera too, the dirty sod!)
Actually, I reckon it was after that incident Louise Jameson announced her intention to leave, she probably thought, "The bastards been giving me the cold shoulder all this time just because Sladen blew the fucker out and now he's on top of me like a randy fucking dog" and slapped her notice in around Graham Williams chops.

I have no proof of this of course, but the signs are all there in the undercurrents of behaviour on display.

Re: S17 and 18 thoughts?

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:05 pm
by Bertrand Marx
Mike wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 10:33 pm
You know, it says something that even a story as turgidly shit as 'Underworld' has something going for it in the Greek mythology intrigue.

NuPu can't even manage that. Its shit is just shit.
The original series, even at its worst, was fundamentally powered by ideas and some semblance of intelligence and never truly patronised even when it was rubbish. NuWho seems to instead revel in pure patronising vacuity much of the time that seems to inherently be about nothing and lacking in any subtext to speak of. Indeed, a tale told by an idiot (three separate idiots in this case), full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Re: S17 and 18 thoughts?

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:08 pm
by Bertrand Marx
Rob Filth wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:25 pm
Mike wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:21 pm
I didn't know that, that's really interesting.

I wonder if what I'm detecting in Fendahl is Tom's belligerence at having to deal with not only a relatively new companion in Leela, but also a new producer.

He's also, all of a sudden, found himself the veteran of the show, hasn't he? Alongside, say, Dudley Simpson.
Fendahl would've actually been his 6th story in production with Louise Jameson, if anything they've got more of a rapport (he does end up lying on top of her during one scene in the story don't forget, I bet he put in a good few thrusts off camera too, the dirty sod!)

I do think Tom is just going through the motions in the story however, he doesn't look as bored as he is during Underworld which was the next story in production, but he's certainly lacking urgency, energy and zest in the story.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I didn’t notice too much wrong with his performance in that story, to be honest. It’s hardly one of his finest hours, but he’s far from bad in it. As for the story itself, I’d say it’s generally pretty good beyond the fact that episode 4 seems quite jarringly rushed (unsurprising given the abridged 20 minute runtime) and that, as Rob’s previously stated, it does mark the first instance where punches are beginning to be pulled in terms of viscera and violence, but it’s still an effectively atmospheric tale.

Re: S17 and 18 thoughts?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:42 am
by Rob Filth
Naughtius Maximus wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:05 pm
The original series, even at its worst, was fundamentally powered by ideas and some semblance of intelligence and never truly patronised even when it was rubbish. NuWho seems to instead revel in pure patronising vacuity much of the time that seems to inherently be about nothing and lacking in any subtext to speak of. Indeed, a tale told by an idiot (three separate idiots in this case), full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
A lot of people claim the NuPooh is "preachy" and "too-PC". What it seems to me to be is a series which strives to make a point but fails every time because it has no coherency of consistency in the moralising it attempts to make. The reason being for this is that in it's initial urgent panicked desperacy to be "populist" it immediately threw all of its morals and principles upon the scrap heap and now all that's left is repeated navel gazed attempts to rewrite it's brief and origins.

Any programme which is singularly concerned with repeatedly attempting to re-write it's mythology whilst making heavy handed bungled attempts at moralising at the expense of just telling good stories instead is surely doomed to fail.

Re: S17 and 18 thoughts?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:02 am
by Biroc the Tharil
Agreed Rob ^^ Of course, be interesting to know if the Pertwee equivalents that are always cited by fans of Chinball (i.e. 'Dr Who has been doing this sort of politico crap for ever') would have *felt* the same then (Pertwee's 70s eps) as the fatuousness of the latter feel now...I suspect they wouldn't have, but it was *just* a little before my time...

Re: S17 and 18 thoughts?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:36 pm
by Mike
Rob Filth wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:42 am
Naughtius Maximus wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:05 pm
The original series, even at its worst, was fundamentally powered by ideas and some semblance of intelligence and never truly patronised even when it was rubbish. NuWho seems to instead revel in pure patronising vacuity much of the time that seems to inherently be about nothing and lacking in any subtext to speak of. Indeed, a tale told by an idiot (three separate idiots in this case), full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
A lot of people claim the NuPooh is "preachy" and "too-PC". What it seems to me to be is a series which strives to make a point but fails every time because it has no coherency of consistency in the moralising it attempts to make. The reason being for this is that in it's initial urgent panicked desperacy to be "populist" it immediately threw all of its morals and principles upon the scrap heap and now all that's left is repeated navel gazed attempts to rewrite it's brief and origins.

Any programme which is singularly concerned with repeatedly attempting to re-write it's mythology whilst making heavy handed bungled attempts at moralising at the expense of just telling good stories instead is surely doomed to fail.
Yep.

NuPu is 'politically correct' insofar as political correctness sells, and they're marketing this series towards the broadest demographic. Which in and of itself is fine -- but it's transformed the whole thing into one giant fucking advertisement for itself.

Whenever I watch an episode it feels like I'm watching a trailer, like it's trying to sell itself to me, to convince me it's good. It's the televisual equivalent of that stupidly expensive book crApple did a few years back that was literally just a gallery of its products.

NuPu maintains a semblance of moralism, that is, it's a charade. None of its stories seem to actually have a point bar one or two exceptions, none of which have come out in the past three years. They all simply feel like they're saying something. They dangle the carrot, and never quite make it. Compare that to, say, 'The Chimes of Midnight', which I think is a genuinely excellent work of art, not simply a Doctor Who story.

The late Mark Fisher once described the Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy years as a 'palimpsest of empty signifiers', meaning that the show had ceased to thematise and now referred to nothing but itself. I think that's a little unfair when applied to the Colin era at least (some of the Sylv stuff is certainly like that [and the Virgin New Adventures are very fucking aptly named]) but fuck me it's a great description of the new show.

Think of the Daleks for instance. Where once the Daleks were a metaphor for Nazism, now they signify nothing else than 'Daleks'. And maybe that happened decades ago -- fine. But classic Who didn't overuse them either. Tom Baker didn't have a proper Dalek story for fuck's sake -- he had two Davros stories. He didn't counter an invasion. I'd go so far as to say that while the Daleks appeared, there wasn't a Dalek story as such between 'Death to the Daleks' and 'Resurrection of the Daleks'. And even the latter is tenuous.

The Moffat era really went to town on this with its constant postmodern calling-back. The show seems able only to be about itself. Some of the Jodie stories have tried to be otherwise, but have failed disastrously. 'Kerblam!' for instance. Fuck me -- in the year 2018, Doctor Who defended Amazon against striking warehouse workers. I guarantee that wasn't its intention, though. They're just inept.

This year's finale is the utter apex of what I am talking about. Think about this: Davies actually tried to do the right thing by limiting the callbacks. Chibnall devoted an entire series to making the Morbius Doctors canon.

Read that again:

Chibnall devoted an entire series to making the Morbius Doctors canon.

Re: S17 and 18 thoughts?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:11 pm
by Rob Filth
Mike wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:36 pm
Chibnall devoted an entire series to making the Morbius Doctors canon.
The painful thing is the Morbius Doctors never were canon to begin with, in "The Three Doctors" when the Lord President asks, "show me the earliest Doctor" and Hartnell pops up on the screen. Hartnell himself even confessed, "It all started off as a curiosity in a junkyard", Hurndalls 1st Doctor in "The Five Doctors, "Goodness Gracious! So there are 5 of me now!"

The only reasons Holmes/Hinchcliffe put in the tease of the ambiguous possibility of their being more Doctors in "Morbius" was for the same reason they later invented the 13-life rule in "Deadly Assassin", after Pertwees regeneration(who had been a very firmly established Doctor in most kids minds) whenever the two men attempted to ramp up the jeopardy for each cliffhanger some smartarse kid instead of thinking,"How's he going to get out of THAT one?" as intended, would come out with, "Well who cares, even if he dies he'll just regenerate like Pertwee did, the Doctor never dies" and it was purely to make the audience realise the preciousness of the Doctors life, even if on a red herring that Morbius's previous incarnations which flashed up during the mind bending contest were.

The fact that Chibnall has gone to some great pains and elaboration to write them in as "canon" really shows that he doesn't have the first fucking idea of the series, but anyone seeing him Michael Grade sympathising whilst slagging off Pip and Janes Baker decades ago could've told you that before he got chance to butcher the franchise anyway.

I mean why the fuck would a pre-Hartnell Doctor even be travelling around in a Police Box shaped TARDIS anyway when the chameleon circuit got stuck at Totters Lane?