Williams or JNT?

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Who was the better producer of the two?

Graham Williams
6
50%
JNT
6
50%
 
Total votes: 12
Bertrand Marx
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Williams or JNT?

Post by Bertrand Marx »

The latter two producers of the original series are easily the most polarising and downright divisive of the classic series, and I can imagine this question polarising fandom all the more: Which of the two was inherently superior?

And just to add this brief aside: One of them only wanted to preserve the purity and childlike wholesomeness of the show, and the other only wanted to appease the pacifist degenerate weak-willed believers and turned the show into a misanthropic death cult. Such a thing absolutely needs to be said before one even contemplates asking such a question. :lol:

In all seriousness, I veer towards JNT on the grounds that his era, despite being less consistent overall and featuring lower lows in season 23 and 24, has more overall longevity due to the varied nature of those final 9 years of the programme (courtesy of the varying ethos of each three respective script editors) and likely had higher highs overall, as well as a more consistent emphasis on drama-laden stories (despite my likely enjoying the Adams/pythonesque inspired tone of the Williams era more than some).
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Eldred
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Re: Williams or JNT?

Post by Eldred »

That's a hard question: I would say that early JNT (seasons 18-20) > Williams era > later JNT (21-26) . And like it says above the JNT era had greater highs, but the Williams era was more consistently good.
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Ludders
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Re: Williams or JNT?

Post by Ludders »

S15 may not be the strongest season ever, but it's still an integral part of my personal Dr Who experience, so it's Williams by default.
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iank
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Re: Williams or JNT?

Post by iank »

Williams. Nothing against JNT, and 22, 25 and 26 are right up there but so are 16 and 17 and no Williams season is as bad as 23.
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Rob Filth
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Re: Williams or JNT?

Post by Rob Filth »

Undoubtedly JNT for me.

The reasons why Seasons 23 and 24 are so shit is because they are like Williams style Seasons.

In fact everything after Season 22 isn't really JNT in my view and more Grade/Powell.

Although Williams first half of Season 15 isn't bad(a bit like a flabby Hinchcliffe season) and contains the Classic "Horror of Fang Rock", Season 16 is the worst Tom Baker season and worst season from the 70's era and Season 17 is not too far behind it. Although production wise both "City of Death" and "Creature from the Pit" are good, I wouldn't call either story classics.

"Warriors Gate", "Earthshock", "The Five Doctors", "Resurrection of The Daleks", "Caves of Androzani", "Attack of the Cybermen", "Two Doctors" and "Revelation of the Daleks" I put firmly on par with any Hinchcliffe story and true classics and the only Williams story which makes the grade on par with that level is "Horror of Fang Rock" and possibly at a pinch "Image of the Fendahl" and "Invisible Enemy"(minus the K9 and Marinus scenes) too.

Whilst JNT also produced quite a list of crap stories too, most of the really awful ones are post Season 22. "Four To Doomsday", "Timeflight", "Terminus", ""Warriors of the Deep", Twin Dilemma", "Timelash" etc are all bad for usually bad budgetary constraints and fucking flat/dire direction and/or sleepy synth music. I maintain even really boring scripts like "Four to Doomsday" could've been made more exciting with some dynamic, sharp snappy direction and better suspense-driven incidental music.

Even the most dire of JNT stories post Season 22, "Mysterious Planet", "Mindwarp", "Dragonfire", "Happiness Patrol", "Battlefield" are really no worse on the shitometer scale than the excretable "Underworld", "Armageddon Factor" or "Horns Of The Nimon".

JNT's biggest faults were poor direction, overlit studio lights, sleepy synth music, a blurring the lines between adult and child whereas Williams greatest faults were over-indulging the lead actor, making the series twee and childish, and overbearing smugness and patronisation, poor casting.

Both of them had imperfections, but I found either by trial or error JNT hit the mark more than Williams by producing at least one classic story a season which hit the Hinchcliffe benchmark for me personally. Both Season 16 and 17 failed to do this for me personally and JNT only failed in this benchmark once Grade and Powell fucked things up and effectively took all executive decisions away from him.
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Biroc the Tharil
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Re: Williams or JNT?

Post by Biroc the Tharil »

Agree with Rob and he sums a lot of what I think up perfectly. I'd only add the under JNT, the greatest ever episode of Dr Who was released, 'Logopolis' episode 3. So it's JNT.
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MistressRani
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Re: Williams or JNT?

Post by MistressRani »

Biroc the Tharil wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:44 am
Agree with Rob and he sums a lot of what I think up perfectly. I'd only add the under JNT, the greatest ever episode of Dr Who was released, 'Logopolis' episode 3. So it's JNT.
I'm forced to agree with Rob too :mrgreen: Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Smugness of the Williams era is what does it for me.
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Bertrand Marx
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Re: Williams or JNT?

Post by Bertrand Marx »

MistressRani wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:44 am
Biroc the Tharil wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:44 am
Agree with Rob and he sums a lot of what I think up perfectly. I'd only add the under JNT, the greatest ever episode of Dr Who was released, 'Logopolis' episode 3. So it's JNT.
I'm forced to agree with Rob too :mrgreen: Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Smugness of the Williams era is what does it for me.
Although I too agree with Rob overall, do you not find NuWho remotely smug either? At least the Williams era had aspirations to intelligence much of the time as opposed to mere abject mediocrity.
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MistressRani
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Re: Williams or JNT?

Post by MistressRani »

Bertrand Marx wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:53 am
MistressRani wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:44 am
Biroc the Tharil wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:44 am
Agree with Rob and he sums a lot of what I think up perfectly. I'd only add the under JNT, the greatest ever episode of Dr Who was released, 'Logopolis' episode 3. So it's JNT.
I'm forced to agree with Rob too :mrgreen: Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Smugness of the Williams era is what does it for me.
Although I too agree with Rob overall, do you not find NuWho remotely smug either? At least the Williams era had aspirations to intelligence much of the time as opposed to mere abject mediocrity.
I think there are occasions where smugness has crept in e.g. the end of the Matt Smith/Clara arc
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DogStar2000
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Re: Williams or JNT?

Post by DogStar2000 »

Graham Williams
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