Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

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Most insufferable NuWho Master?

John Simm
2
14%
Michelle Gomez
8
57%
Sacha Dhawan
4
29%
 
Total votes: 14
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Rawkus
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Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Rawkus »

Bertrand Marx wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:14 pm
Darth Rawkus wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:01 pm
Fuck it, Gomez.
I’m still not sure, mostly because I think The Timeless Children is even shittier than both Death in Heaven and The Magician’s Apprentice. And he’s also fucking awful in it. But it’s difficult to settle on Dhawan given how laughably bad Missy’s characterisation and overall portrayal was.
Honestly, I am loathed to have to rewatch either to make a direct comparison. I just keep remembering Missy's head popping out of a screen like a giant nodding dog. She was consistently awful, I think Dharwan at least tones it down for the finale. But please don't make me watch them again. Not the Missy one anyway. I couldn't stand River Song cos she was so cocky and smug, and Missy isn't far off that. Little more humorous maybe. Dharwan was not the worst thing about The Timelss Child in my opinion, so may that makes him more bearable in my mind... *shrugs*
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Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Burunman »

How is this even a question?

None of the three of them have been proper versions of the Master, but dear god Michelle Gomez was not just the worst version of the Master, I'd go as far as to say she is the worst version of any iconic villain. It makes me angry to see Jared Leto get raked over hot coals by people like Channel Pup, who then praise Missy. (Not that I like Jared Leto's Joker, but he was just bland and didn't really get to do much. He was at least a proper version of the character.)

Missy embodied NONE of the Masters time honoured, defining traits.

1/ She didn't want to conquer the galaxy. (This is the most embarassing. It's in his fucking name Moffat how could you miss that?)

2/ She is in love with the Doctor which not only throws away his hatred for the Doctor, but undermines it in previous stories and makes a mockery of them. Try watching the Deadly Assassin now and not laugh. The Master is now a jealous ex in that story.

3/ She isn't manipulaitve. The most fascinating thing about the Master was the way we saw him twist the people around him. Trenchard, Kassia, Goth, Gaia, Chang, Nyssa, even the Rani. He'd play on a weakness or a strength in all instances and make them trust, maybe even love him. He'd turn good people into accomplices for evil or even monsters. Missy does NONE of that. The closest is her lackey Chang, but we never see any kind of relationship between them. He just works for her and then she shoots him.

4/ We also never see her do what the Master does and stir up shit, like between the Draconians and humans, the luddites that he sics on the Doctor, or The Daemons where he plays on superstition or put herself in a position of authority and use that against the Doctor like Frontier, The Daemons, Deadly Assassin. The closest is the 3W thing, but that goes nowhere.

5/ She isn't hypnotic.

6/ She doesn't have the TCE

7/ They didn't even get the fucking gender right!

In what way is this the same character as the original? I'd say she is the Master in name only, but even then she's not. At least Simm whilst buggering up his origins and relationship with the Doctor got some things right like his manipulative nature (Lucy Saxon, Martha's family) his lust for power, his hatred of the Doctor, his cowardice. Hell even Dhawan got the TCE and his hatred of the Doctor, and his manipulative nature. Gomez wasn't even an attempt at doing the character.
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Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Burunman »

Glad to see Pissy Missy is winning. I lose all respect for someone as a DW fan if they say she was anything but shit.
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Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Bertrand Marx »

Burunman wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:56 am
Glad to see Pissy Missy is winning. I lose all respect for someone as a DW fan if they say she was anything but shit.
I never understood why so many people thought that Missy was an excellent creation or that Gomez provided a good portrayal of the character. She’s insanely caricatured and the epitome of a Moffat parody archetype (eliciting the same quantities of smugness as River Song- in fact, she’s basically the same flirtatious stereotype, albeit antagonistic). She’s awful on every level.

I also never quite understood the narrative behind her “redemption” arc in series 10 either. Why the hell would she even have the incentive to redeem herself, and when and why does such a shift in her moral philosopher occur?
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Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Burunman »

Bertrand Marx wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:03 pm
Burunman wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:56 am
Glad to see Pissy Missy is winning. I lose all respect for someone as a DW fan if they say she was anything but shit.
I never understood why so many people thought that Missy was an excellent creation or that Gomez provided a good portrayal of the character. She’s insanely caricatured and the epitome of a Moffat parody archetype (eliciting the same quantities of smugness as River Song- in fact, she’s basically the same flirtatious stereotype, albeit antagonistic). She’s awful on every level.

I also never quite understood the narrative behind her “redemption” arc in series 10 either. Why the hell would she even have the incentive to redeem herself, and when and why does such a shift in her moral philosopher occur?
No one really thought Missy was good. Most proper fans hold her in contempt and the viewers crashed every year she was in it. (Look at the drop off between S8 and 9. It's quite hilarious.)

Identity driven fanatics said she was good because she could get them a female Doctor. Want proof? Look at Claudia Boleyn's reaction to Irene Adele from Sherlock and compare it to her reaction to Missy.

Irene Adler she claimed was turned from an interesting character into someone whose whole motivation was just to fuck the main hero. She said that was sexist, yet when that happens to the Master, suddenly it's a good thing?

Others meanwhile I feel are scared of being called a sexist, so they praised her. Even among New Who critics I hate to say, they went easier on Missy than Simm and Roberts because obviously it can to the outside world look bad to attack the only female Master.

Wingy Media more or less admitted this to me. Now I don't have anything against Wingy Media. He is a really nice guy, his videos are great and dear god do I wish he and his girlfriend were representative of the majority of DW fans, IE people who are reasonable, passionate about sci fi and don't use it as a vehicle for themselves like Chinballs and Shilbee.

Still Wingy did a video criticising Jodie's casting and he got such a shitstorm from the psycho feminists that he took it down. Later when I got into a debate with an extremist on his channel about Jodie, he said that he agreed with me on everything I said, but that he just didn't want the hassle from it, so he was keeping a more neutral stance from then on (and he eventually dropped DW despite it being his favourite for all time. He didn't even watch S12.)

Wingy is just being more honest than most IMO. The worst are the ones who have the mindset of Wingy, but who then bully people willing to tell the truth. Ironically however in the long run these people are just talking down to women.

I don't believe in talking down to women which is why I hold Missy up to the standards of her male predecessors and other female villains which she falls drastically short of. I know that female villains can be as good as male villains (Callisto is every bit as good as the Joker, Moriarty, and probably better than any version of the original Master, ditto Faith from Buffy.)

I am not however going to hold up a shitty female villain as being the best simply because she's a woman and that absolves her from criticism, nor am I going to say black is white by saying that Missy channelled Roger Delgado of all people.

MISSY: Nothing. It's perfect. But this is a space station, so the gravity should be artificial, all coppery-smelling round the edges, a tiny bit sexy. (American) But this feels real, man. (normal Scottish) Like a planet.

MISSY: Well, yes, of course it is. I mean, how would you ever find your glasses? Or the little girl's room? And what if you kissed an ugly? Unless, when you're part of the atmosphere, you start syncing with the spectrum.

MASTER: How well you know me, Doctor! Now come on, smarten yourselves up. We want to look our best for a royal audience, you know.
JO: He's very confident.
MASTER: Well, Miss Grant, as an Earth poet once said, 'My strength is as the strength of ten because my heart is pure'. Come on, you fellows, let me out! Your Emperor is waiting to see me.


Yep definitely the same villain. That's why people who say that destroy their credibility instantly. On GB that was all they would say about Missy, and when I kept pushing the likes of Jon Blum to tell me how she was like Missy, all they could say was "I can see Roger Delgado in her eyes." What the fuck does that even mean?
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Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Ludders »

I actually think that Michelle Gomez is very capable of playing someone cold, calculating, and dangerous. You can see flashes of steel in her performance, but since the character has been so appallingly written and re-conceived as a panto dame; any potential talents are simply wasted; subsumed in the fetid re-imagining that is NuWho. Same goes for Sim, whose Master is just another pantomime incarnation.
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Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Burunman »

Ludders wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:33 pm
I actually think that Michelle Gomez is very capable of playing someone cold, calculating, and dangerous. You can see flashes of steel in her performance, but since the character has been so appallingly written and re-conceived as a panto dame; any potential talents are simply wasted; subsumed in the fetid re-imagining that is NuWho. Same goes for Sim, whose Master is just another pantomime incarnation.
I don't doubt that Michelle Gomez is a good actress. Ironically she's the kind of actress I normally really like. She's like Morgana Robinson, Lucy Lawless, Jacqueline Pearce IE a shameless ham who specialises in playing crazy, OTT villains.

However it just wasn't a good fit for the Master. I'm not sure if she could do the right kind of cold, calculating type of villain to be honest. You need someone who can be charming for the Master. As he is someone who can manipulate, seduce people or at least appear non threatening and quite affable. You also need someone a bit snobbish, and pompous as the Master is a Time Lord who thinks he is above everyone else. Gomez definitely isn't that.

Gomez, much like Lawless and Pearce looks a bit too severe (not that that's a bad thing normally LOL) and her personality is a bit too full on. You'd always think she was at least a bit eccentric, which is not right for the Master. Ironically not that I would want a female Doctor, but Gomez is more female Doctor material. IE an unusual, but attractive looking, naturally eccentric, big personality.

I still say Simon Templeman who does the voice of Doctor Doom here, would have been the best Master. (Though that's not to say he is a better actor overall, just a better fit for that type of villain as he can do the pompous, affably evil thing better.)

https://youtu.be/qi86yeXB9pI

I do agree though that the writing is the problem. I think it all stems from Moffat's hatred of the Master. He openly said he disliked the villain and had no interest in writing for him, until Michelle.

That basically to me means, Moffat saw an opportunity to win favour with his progressive critics, lazily reused his River Song/Irene Adler crap again, and on top of that deliberately wrote the villain to an OTT panto character because the Master was always a joke and only a ming mong took him seriously.
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Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Bayban »

Simm. On the account that I can't remember Missy (Never saw Death In Heaven and only vaguely bits of the Dalek story she was in, none of the bits with her though) and have never seen the new guy after.

I think he's an entertaining actor and he had a few good moments here and there in Sound Of Drums, but his characterization as an subpar Joker wannabe in LOTTL and TEOT were awful.
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Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Burunman »

BaybanTheBeserker wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:12 pm
Simm. On the account that I can't remember Missy (Never saw Death In Heaven and only vaguely bits of the Dalek story she was in, none of the bits with her though) and have never seen the new guy after.

I think he's an entertaining actor and he had a few good moments here and there in Sound Of Drums, but his characterization as an subpar Joker wannabe in LOTTL and TEOT were awful.
You were lucky to miss Gomez. Think Simm on crack.

John Simm has proven himself in other series I agree. Also I feel that he might have been okay if given better material as he did hate the way the character was written and all of the more faithful aspects of his S10 performance came from him rather than Moffat.
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Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by The Sevenfold Man »

Bloody hell, it’s like picking between vomit, shit or puss.

Simm’s Master comes off as a being written by someone who has heard of the Master and his characteristics, but never watched a single episode of the classic series. All of the finer points of the character and his relationship with the Doctor seem to have been lost of Fathead. There is not one moment we’re I view this Master as charismatic or truly intelligent, but the latter part is just NuWho’s writing in a nutshell.

Major souring point is the whole Drums thing. It like the Master became the test subject for all the ideas these hack writers wanted to use on the Doctor. In this case, taking away all responsibility and agency for their former actions.

Gomez’s Missy is pretty much the Anti-Master and sums up pretty much all of NuWho Writing. Firstly she can only work in the sense of all the Master’s agency being lost during FatHeads run. Without all her sins handwaved away, there is zero way even the braying herd that NuWho panders to would accept Missy and the Doctor’s relationship. What’s worse is that she is still doing dispicable acts and we are just supposed to forgive her because... why? Because Doctor says she can change? In spite of all she dose prior to her death!? Because the Master now has a vagina? Piss off!

Also, as many have already pointed out, Missy displays vertically none of the Master’s character.

As for Dhawan, I have never watched an episode Chinballs era so I cannot comment proper but from the clips I’ve seen, were just back to Simm problems with the character. He’s over the top, uncharismatic and unconvincing intelligent. His only stand out sin is being part of the Timeless Child crap. And maybe that’s his biggest flaw, the weakest of the three.

To describe him I’d say “you are such a failure that even in a competition for failing you somehow come second, because even that victory is beyond you”.


You know something’s gone horrible wrong when Ainley’s Master at his worst is still better then these three NuMasters.
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