What Music Do You Like

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Mike
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Re: What Music Do You Like

Post by Mike »

Naughtius Maximus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:53 am
You seem to have uniformly excellent taste in music, Mike! :)
Too kind.

Seriously, the one to go for with music round here is Biroc.

I'm not about to reveal all about the guy here, but let's just say he's a total expert, and I've learnt a very great deal from him, as well as from the late B.

It was B and Biroc who put me onto Nono, Stockhausen, Schoenberg, etc. Serious music.

Which isn't to say I don't listen to shit too!
Es gibt kein richtiges Leben im falschen.
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Re: What Music Do You Like

Post by Ludders »

Mike wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:40 pm
Naughtius Maximus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:53 am
You seem to have uniformly excellent taste in music, Mike! :)
It was B and Biroc who put me onto Nono, Stockhausen, Schoenberg, etc. Serious music.
They’ve got a lot to answer for.
Once it gets to twelve tone/serialism, I’m out.
:mrgreen:
Poor B, he tried to get me into all that stuff, but I couldn’t stand it. I wonder if Biroc can remember the night when B phoned him up when I compared some piece or other that he’d put on, to Pink Floyd pissing about. Poor B was apoplectic. He took it all very seriously.
To be honest though he did introduce me to shit loads of good stuff, like Bruckner and Mahler, but some of the stuff he liked, I thought was shite. :lol:
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Re: What Music Do You Like

Post by Mike »

Ludders wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:31 pm
Mike wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:40 pm
Naughtius Maximus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:53 am
You seem to have uniformly excellent taste in music, Mike! :)
It was B and Biroc who put me onto Nono, Stockhausen, Schoenberg, etc. Serious music.
They’ve got a lot to answer for.
Once it gets to twelve tone/serialism, I’m out.
:mrgreen:
Poor B, he tried to get me into all that stuff, but I couldn’t stand it. I wonder if Biroc can remember the night when B phoned him up when I compared some piece or other that he’d put on, to Pink Floyd pissing about. Poor B was apoplectic. He took it all very seriously.
To be honest though he did introduce me to shit loads of good stuff, like Bruckner and Mahler, but some of the stuff he liked, I thought was shite. :lol:
I think the twelve-tone stuff is actively resistant to mere enjoyment, and sure, that's not for everyone.

I remember the story about the phonecall. Dear old Jake related this to me too. Wasn't it about the way Gilmour played his guitar being comparable to the way some musician or other did it, by resting it on its back across his thighs or something?

In a certain sense he probably had a point, although I don't know what he said -- I imagine it may be the same thing as Adorno pointed out about the Beatles being objectively retarded, that is, employing outmoded techniques siphoned off of serious music.

At the same time, he was extremely resistant to popular music, perhaps unfairly at times. All music is caught in social contradictions after all, including serious music. Adorno was painfully aware of this. And I know B could get stuck in some serious fucking ruts. I witnessed this with my own eyes one night. Let's just say: poor old Jake.
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Re: What Music Do You Like

Post by Ludders »

I think it was a piece that had been written for violins or cellos to be played using the wooden back of the bow, and I compared it to Dave Gilmour doing something similar on Pink Floyd at Pompei.
I understood B’s point about trained musicians being able to play music that Pink Floyd couldnt play in a million years, but my point was not to imply that Pink Floyd were as good a musicians as these guys, but that the end result sounded not equally shit, trained musicians or not.
Of course, these things are totally subjective. But to me, there’s a point where so-called serious music, or modern classical music just starts to get a bit pretentious, and chin stroking over Stockhausen writing music to be played in 4 helicopters, for example.
Same with modern art. I understand that sometimes art and music can be a medium used to challenge the way we think, and that is beyond ‘mere enjoyment’, but I’d argue that Pink Floyd were doing the same thing in a different way. And I don’t see why one should be lauded for it, and one should be derided for it, purely out of intellectual snobbery.
Obviously, I was also basically trolling him a bit as well, considering I’m not even that bothered about Pink Floyd, and Jake certainly wasn’t. :mrgreen:
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Re: What Music Do You Like

Post by Mike »

Oh the helicopter thing is fucking stupid, yeah. And as for technique, it's totally fair to say they're equal, that's fine. I suppose then the primacy of technique must be called into question (not saying you're doing this like).

I'd say that, at least from the likes out Adorno, it's not out of snobbery, but out of art's meaning in a capitalist society; his aesthetic values are drawn therefrom. It's also down to the position that there is a temporal element to truth, i.e., what art is valid at a certain point for whatever reason may not be at another time, if that makes sense.

Of course, this position can easily be petrified and become snobbery, as Adorno himself understood. At the same time, the culture industry, mass-produced art (which Floyd did not set out to be, but inevitably became thanks to the machinery of distribution in which they were inevitably involved), is arguably the more elitist form of art, as it decides for the consumer what is valid and what is not, and excuses itself by being immediately communicable, where something like Mahler or Nono may require a little more concentration. But this communicability is a way by which the culture industry posits itself as music for the 'masses' as opposed to the 'snobby' stuff they can't understand.

For me, the best music from Schoenberg on sublimates an awareness of this contradiction into itself, and the best artists recognise that art alone cannot escape this predicament; only a radical social alteration could liberate artistic practice. And I do mean liberate -- music not as an industry or a private activity, but as a festive aspect of daily life.

The reason people struggle with serious music -- and I include the likes of Mahler in this -- is because of a total lack of education, which is something that runs deep in the constitution of a society where people's senses tend to be tied more to utility than anything else, i.e., the vast majority of people -- and to a certain extent I include myself in this -- lack what Marx called a 'musical ear'.

The immediate communicability of pop not only keeps people in this lowly position, but turns it into ideology in order to justify it. The point for me would be to raise people to the level of serious music, which would also in turn, of course, alter the content of said music. Walter Benjamin is good on this (in a general sense) in 'The Task of the Translator'.
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Re: What Music Do You Like

Post by Biroc the Tharil »

I remember the call. Indeed.
'Believe nothing they say - they're not Biroc's kind.'
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Re: What Music Do You Like

Post by Biroc the Tharil »

Mike wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:40 pm
Naughtius Maximus wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:53 am
You seem to have uniformly excellent taste in music, Mike! :)
Too kind.

Seriously, the one to go for with music round here is Biroc.

I'm not about to reveal all about the guy here, but let's just say he's a total expert, and I've learnt a very great deal from him, as well as from the late B.

It was B and Biroc who put me onto Nono, Stockhausen, Schoenberg, etc. Serious music.

Which isn't to say I don't listen to shit too!
Cheers Mike haha!
'Believe nothing they say - they're not Biroc's kind.'
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Re: What Music Do You Like

Post by Bertrand Marx »

Mike wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:17 pm
Of course, this position can easily be petrified and become snobbery, as Adorno himself understood. At the same time, the culture industry, mass-produced art (which Floyd did not set out to be, but inevitably became thanks to the machinery of distribution in which they were inevitably involved), is arguably the more elitist form of art, as it decides for the consumer what is valid and what is not, and excuses itself by being immediately communicable, where something like Mahler or Nono may require a little more concentration. But this communicability is a way by which the culture industry posits itself as music for the 'masses' as opposed to the 'snobby' stuff they can't understand.

For me, the best music from Schoenberg on sublimates an awareness of this contradiction into itself, and the best artists recognise that art alone cannot escape this predicament; only a radical social alteration could liberate artistic practice. And I do mean liberate -- music not as an industry or a private activity, but as a festive aspect of daily life.

The reason people struggle with serious music -- and I include the likes of Mahler in this -- is because of a total lack of education, which is something that runs deep in the constitution of a society where people's senses tend to be tied more to utility than anything else, i.e., the vast majority of people -- and to a certain extent I include myself in this -- lack what Marx called a 'musical ear'.
Interesting analysis. Though I’m nowhere near as well versed in different musical forms as you may be, I certainly understand your angle and Adorno’s perspective. The notion of classic “austere” music being portrayed as “snobbery” is deeply ironic when one considers that they do not conform to the establishment in its current state. The culture industry relies on both capitalism and populism in order to function, and sadly, populism often involves the distilling of any genuinely challenging features from any proclaimed work of art in order to make it all the more “accessible”. The likes of Stockhausen, Bartók, Nono etc don’t adhere to stereotypical variations of accessibility due to relying on comparatively avant-garde musical renditions which are seen as snobbery, yet the establishment adores shallow and populist music due to its inherent consumerist nature. Call it reverse snobbery that relies on the exploitation of mediocrity.

A prime and apt example in this case in relation to Doctor Who would be Delia Derbyshire vs Murray Gold. I adore Delia’s work immensely, especially her earlier ambient output (“Sea” is an amazing work, as are her other pieces aided by the poetic input of Barry Bermange, and Pink Floyd’s best work was clearly inspired by them), and that’s not even getting started on the original Who theme, but her output wouldn’t be considered mainstream or popular in the slightest (I think the BBC even claimed she was too esoteric or “erotic”). Murray Gold, meanwhile, is infinitely less pioneering or intellectually stimulating given that his works are basically half-arsed renditions of Tchaikovsky and John Williams, yet he receives a prom in his honour and is far more well regarded and recognised. Then again, that argument could be applied to TruWho and NuWho in general. The neoliberal media adore shallow populism, and comparing Classic and New Who certainly demonstrates the cultural emphasis on such.

Utility is prided above the arts partly due to the ever-growing presence of neoliberalism, where art is commodified and conservative politicians care less about the treasures of the arts and more on utility (as reinforced by twats like Michael Gove and Nicky Morgan). As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve been reading Honoré De Balzac’s “Lost Illusions” recently (as well as getting into Dostoyevsky and Zola) which draws these parallels very well, mainly through Lucien’s decisions to turn down the group of intellectuals he initially joins to embrace the crass, decadent and ultimately decrepit world of journalism as a means of seeking glory. The same applies to music. Mediocrity is definitely treasured above genuine musical or literary integrity in today’s society, and it is incredibly saddening. That isn’t to say I don’t enjoy some popular music, of course (I will have likely enjoyed a few things B hated by the sounds of it!).

Anyway, that’s my ramble out of the way. I’ll turn to Biroc in the future for musical discussion as you recommend. :)

Let me know if I’ve just talked a load of shite above, by the way. 😂
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Re: What Music Do You Like

Post by Ludders »

I think the point for me (as a lover of a lot of ‘serious’ music, as well as a lot of popular music) is the point at which something becomes an exercise.
Again, this is all completely subjective, but for me the greatest serious music and my favourite popular musics essentially do the same thing, but just via completely different routes.
It’s essentially about making me feel something. Whether it’s the heights of Beethoven and Wagner or Django Reinhardt or Motörhead. They all stir the soul in different ways.
Whereas to me, Schoenberg has the same effect as Coldplay. I feel nothing.
Obviously I’m generalising somewhat, in order to make my point, but there’s a point at which modern classical music starts to leave me cold.
But then I’m a romantic at heart, which is why I fell it love with Bruckner and Mahler. Although I have a lot of space in my heart for French impressionists as well, like Debussy, Ravel, etc...
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Re: What Music Do You Like

Post by Bertrand Marx »

Alluding back to my sentiments concerning the celebration of mediocrity (although I’m not a snob myself and will admit to being fairly thick and knowing very little about anything- a philosophy Socrates certainly approved of), I found this amusing piece in satirical character Jonathan Pie’s “Off the record”:

“Not all art has to be high art...crap telly is fine...but I’m convinced that the television we consume is making us all thicker...just compare the questions on Bullseye to any modern day quiz show...they’re answering questions about Greek culture. Correctly! They’re answering questions about the music of Gustav Mahler. They’re finishing quotations by Keats...Just thirty years later, your average question these days is “For £10,000, according to chat magazine, which ex Celebrity Big Brother housemate’s fake tits recently exploded whilst on a Ryanair flight to Magaluf?””

Anyway, I know I’ve diverted the musical discussion somewhat, so I’ll leave it to you guys from this point. 😂
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