Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Moderators: _liam_, Mike

Most insufferable NuWho Master?

John Simm
2
14%
Michelle Gomez
8
57%
Sacha Dhawan
4
29%
 
Total votes: 14
Burunman
Reactions:
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue May 26, 2020 12:33 am
Location: Glasgow

Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Burunman »

The Sevenfold Man wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:27 am
Bloody hell, it’s like picking between vomit, shit or puss.

Simm’s Master comes off as a being written by someone who has heard of the Master and his characteristics, but never watched a single episode of the classic series. All of the finer points of the character and his relationship with the Doctor seem to have been lost of Fathead. There is not one moment we’re I view this Master as charismatic or truly intelligent, but the latter part is just NuWho’s writing in a nutshell.

Major souring point is the whole Drums thing. It like the Master became the test subject for all the ideas these hack writers wanted to use on the Doctor. In this case, taking away all responsibility and agency for their former actions.

Gomez’s Missy is pretty much the Anti-Master and sums up pretty much all of NuWho Writing. Firstly she can only work in the sense of all the Master’s agency being lost during FatHeads run. Without all her sins handwaved away, there is zero way even the braying herd that NuWho panders to would accept Missy and the Doctor’s relationship. What’s worse is that she is still doing dispicable acts and we are just supposed to forgive her because... why? Because Doctor says she can change? In spite of all she dose prior to her death!? Because the Master now has a vagina? Piss off!

Also, as many have already pointed out, Missy displays vertically none of the Master’s character.

As for Dhawan, I have never watched an episode Chinballs era so I cannot comment proper but from the clips I’ve seen, were just back to Simm problems with the character. He’s over the top, uncharismatic and unconvincing intelligent. His only stand out sin is being part of the Timeless Child crap. And maybe that’s his biggest flaw, the weakest of the three.

To describe him I’d say “you are such a failure that even in a competition for failing you somehow come second, because even that victory is beyond you”.


You know something’s gone horrible wrong when Ainley’s Master at his worst is still better then these three NuMasters.
Ainley's Master at his worst was just a rather dull villain forced into a story that didn't really need him. All long running villains go through a period like that. There are many Joker stories where he is just generic bad guy.

You forgive them as these stories don't ruin the character, and eventually a writer who really likes or at least gets the character will come along and do a good story with them, like Killing Joke, or Survival.

What happened to the Master in New Who is quite unique. I have never seen a villain destroyed quite so completely and utterly and the fanbase being so spineless as to go along with it.

Again Jared Leto's Joker was enough for Batman fans to riot. My god I would kill for a version of the Master that was like Jared IE just a generic but faithful version. That's several steps up from Pissy Missy.

And yes the idea that anyone would ship the Master and the Doctor is laughable. The monster has destroyed billions of planets, but eh he likes some of the same things as the Doctor. They can both sit down and listen to Beatles albums together? It reminds me of in Red Dwarf when they find out that their future selves have befriended the Hitlers.

"Provided you don't talk politics they're an absolute hoot."

Missy was an atrocious villain all around however, not just in regards to the Master.

What does she actually bring to the series? She doesn't challenge the hero at any point. She fails as an archenemy. In her first story she is beaten by a no thanks, in her second she just prances around like a moron, and in her third she has to be rescued and then is reduced to the Doctor and her earlier selves sidekick.

She has no memorable dialogue and confrontations with the hero. Her scenes with him consist of flirting and cringey double entendres.

She doesn't accomplish anything as a villain either. She kills ONE Asthmatic fangirl, and even then she only accomplishes that, not through cunning, but by gaining new superpowers. (Like being able to teleport around the room and without explanation, and putting her handcuffs around the room without explanation.) Best of all people loved said fangirl so much that they had to undo that the next year, and said fangirl has now gone on to be a more recurring character across all forms of media since.

When Angelus killed Jenny Calender she stayed dead!

What else does she accomplish apart from that?

Furthermore she undermines the heroes morality as we've been over. (Now the Doctor thinks it's okay for more intelligent races to slaughter others. He has lost the moral high ground to the Daleks!)

Finally and this is the best of all, she is actually a sexist caricature of a female villain.

Missy drags us back to the 1940s where female villains could never truly be a threat to a male villain. IE women are weaker, less intelligent so of course we can't get a female villain like the Joker who threatens a man in the traditional way. She has to use her womanly wiles to confuse him. Also it's not like women have any grand motives beyond being with a man so that has to be her motive.

Added to that there's the fact that the male hero goes easier on her than the male villains because well you wouldn't expect a woman to be held accountable in the same way as a guy. Also women aren't really evil. They're so cute, if they find out how bad they've really been they'll start crying. Finally this villain will be ridiculously sexualized too.

This type of villain was seen as old hat by the 60s, hence why the Adam West Batman series took the piss out of it gloriously every week with the villains henchwoman, despite being evil, being sent to the Wayne foundation for delinquent girls (nothing dodgy in that :lol: )

We'd come so far with Callisto, Drusilla, Glory, Servalan, Morgana in Merlin, Alti, Faith, The Rani all being proper, powerful, three dimensional villains, whose stories didn't just revolve around the main heroes dick and had grand, powerful ambitions like the Joker and Davros. (Okay all of these villains were sexy, but nothing wrong with that, as long as they aren't just a fantasy of the writer.)

Okay you do still get some femme fatales like Darla in Angel, but even then she does have other motives besides being with Angel, and Angel does at least fight her, sets her on fire, promises to kill her after she bites Cordelia etc.

Missy however to start with has NO motives besides being with the male hero. Even fucking Catwoman had other plans besides being with Batman. He also goes ridiculously easy on her, (kissing her after she has vaporized Osgood and seemingly killed Kate.) She more or less gets sent to the Wayne foundation for delinquent girls in S10 and gets all weepy compared to the male Master.

Also she is ridiculously sexualized the way that every word out of her mouth is an innuendo "show a bad girl how it's done." "I do traps, traps are my way of flirting." The way she is all over the male hero, and the way her male predecessor gets a big boner at being threatened by her.

Hey check out the dialogue between Callisto from Xena and Missy and tell me which one seems more old fashioned.

The sight, just the sight of Xena,Warrior Princess arguing on my behalf amuses me so let me tell you. Let me answer your question of what I would do if you let me go. You let me go and I will dedicate my life to killing everything you've loved. Your friends, your family...Your reputation, even your horse. You see, I am being so honest with you because the idea of your pity is worse than death for me. You see, you created a monster with integrity, Xena. Scary, isn't it? Now, take me to the mob.

Now Missy

DOCTOR: Clara. Clara. Clara. I've got to get Clara!
(The Doctor runs to the lift door.)
MISSY: Oh, Clara, Clara, Clara! You know I should shoot you in a jealous rage. Now, wouldn't that be sexy? I've turned the lift off, though.


But hey MIssy is better for women in the genre than Callisto because she took a role away from men. And that ladies and gentlemen is what leads to Jodie's gurning, squeaky voiced bubble light, dismissing people who are scared of cancer coming back, and telling us not to shoot man eating spiders, similarly being held up by bigoted morons as a good thing for women because it takes away a role from men too.
ImageImage
User avatar
Ludders
Reactions:
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 8:11 pm

Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Ludders »

Burunman wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:45 pm
Ludders wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:33 pm
I actually think that Michelle Gomez is very capable of playing someone cold, calculating, and dangerous. You can see flashes of steel in her performance, but since the character has been so appallingly written and re-conceived as a panto dame; any potential talents are simply wasted; subsumed in the fetid re-imagining that is NuWho. Same goes for Sim, whose Master is just another pantomime incarnation.
I don't doubt that Michelle Gomez is a good actress. Ironically she's the kind of actress I normally really like. She's like Morgana Robinson, Lucy Lawless, Jacqueline Pearce IE a shameless ham who specialises in playing crazy, OTT villains.

However it just wasn't a good fit for the Master. I'm not sure if she could do the right kind of cold, calculating type of villain to be honest. You need someone who can be charming for the Master. As he is someone who can manipulate, seduce people or at least appear non threatening and quite affable. You also need someone a bit snobbish, and pompous as the Master is a Time Lord who thinks he is above everyone else. Gomez definitely isn't that.

Gomez, much like Lawless and Pearce looks a bit too severe (not that that's a bad thing normally LOL) and her personality is a bit too full on. You'd always think she was at least a bit eccentric, which is not right for the Master. Ironically not that I would want a female Doctor, but Gomez is more female Doctor material. IE an unusual, but attractive looking, naturally eccentric, big personality.

I still say Simon Templeman who does the voice of Doctor Doom here, would have been the best Master. (Though that's not to say he is a better actor overall, just a better fit for that type of villain as he can do the pompous, affably evil thing better.)

https://youtu.be/qi86yeXB9pI

I do agree though that the writing is the problem. I think it all stems from Moffat's hatred of the Master. He openly said he disliked the villain and had no interest in writing for him, until Michelle.

That basically to me means, Moffat saw an opportunity to win favour with his progressive critics, lazily reused his River Song/Irene Adler crap again, and on top of that deliberately wrote the villain to an OTT panto character because the Master was always a joke and only a ming mong took him seriously.
I'm not saying Gomez is a good Master, by the standards of the original; just that I think she could definitely play dark characters. Her performance betrays a hint of a ruthless, slightly unhinged sociopath which can occasionally be glimpsed in between the utter naffness of it all. That said, I don't think Simm or Roberts were good Masters either. And I very much doubt that Sacha is any better. None of these people have informed their performances with any of the characteristics that you have described as being integral to playing The Master.
Image
User avatar
ClockworkOcean
Reactions:
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 9:58 pm

Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by ClockworkOcean »

I've only seen a few minutes of Dhawan, and he instantly made both Gomez and Simm at their hammiest look subtle by comparison.

Jacobi was the only good NuWho Master.
User avatar
Ludders
Reactions:
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 8:11 pm

Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Ludders »

ClockworkOcean wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:51 pm
Jacobi was the only good NuWho Master.
I forgot about Jacobi, but yes I agree.
Image
Bertrand Marx
Reactions:
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 8:10 pm

Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Bertrand Marx »

Ludders wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:08 pm
ClockworkOcean wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:51 pm
Jacobi was the only good NuWho Master.
I forgot about Jacobi, but yes I agree.
Likewise. He conveyed more genuine class, cold calculation and outright menace in merely five minutes than any of the other NuWho Masters have managed to do within a multitude of stories. I’m still baffled as to why RTD felt obliged to hastily kill him off and replace him with Simm after appearing for so short a time. Regenerating him was completely pointless as it was, and I’d have loved to have seen more of Jacobi regardless.
User avatar
UncleDeadly
Reactions:
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 9:08 pm

Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by UncleDeadly »

Bertrand Marx wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:18 pm
Ludders wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:08 pm
ClockworkOcean wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:51 pm
Jacobi was the only good NuWho Master.
I forgot about Jacobi, but yes I agree.
Likewise. He conveyed more genuine class, cold calculation and outright menace in merely five minutes than any of the other NuWho Masters have managed to do within a multitude of stories. I’m still baffled as to why RTD felt obliged to hastily kill him off and replace him with Simm after appearing for so short a time. Regenerating him was completely pointless as it was, and I’d have loved to have seen more of Jacobi regardless.
Well, that's absolutely typical of Davies and Moffat, isn't it? Every time they finally get their hands around something potentially interesting and compelling and pull you in with it, they have this perverse compulsion to immediately destroy it with camp nonsense. I remember watching the moment Jacobi reveals himself as the Master, on broadcast, and it was one of those utterly gripping "No way!" moments, only for them to then toss it all away by zapping the Jacobi master and turning him into a hammy, OTT John Simm with the usual toe-curling dialogue. Everyone in my family instantly went from excitement to sour faces and groaning.

Its quite possible, of course, that Jacobi wouldn't commit to anything more than a one-off but this is, yet again, one of the annoying traits of nuwho; that of casting well-known, marquee-name actors for attention but then not having them for long enough to actually do anything with them, which hardly aids the writing, as it becomes constructed around the actor's availability rather than developing organically. Yet another casualty of nuwho's skewed priorities. Also, this led to the nuwho bunch's boasting of Doctor Who now having the cachet to attract big names in a way that it never had before which is, of course, bollocks. Many fine character actors appeared in the original Doctor Who over the years, but why let the truth interfere with your ego-stroking, eh?

Of course, one can see the thinking behind the Simm Master; that he should be a negative reflection of the Doctor in a similar vein to Delgado's suave, urbane evil reflecting Pertwee. The problem, however, is that the Tennant Doctor acts like a complete tit and so his evil counterpart inevitably ends up being rather unimposing, to put it mildy...

Basically, Russell, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Yet Davies always seemed to feel the need to set up something genuinely good that would impress the audience but then to snatch it away, effectively saying "But no, you can't have that..." as if he, somehow, knew better and proved he was cleverer than the audience by wrong-footing them. An irksome, smug trait only exacerbated by Moffat.

Sometimes, the audience is right...
User avatar
Zarius
Reactions:
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Zarius »

ClockworkOcean wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:51 pm
I've only seen a few minutes of Dhawan, and he instantly made both Gomez and Simm at their hammiest look subtle by comparison.

Jacobi was the only good NuWho Master.
How would you rate his Big Finish audios?
The classics endure
The new date and decay
Don't settle for less
Echos that blessed by yesterday

Classic Who: Never outdone, never outgrown
User avatar
ClockworkOcean
Reactions:
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 9:58 pm

Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by ClockworkOcean »

Zarius wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:19 pm
How would you rate his Big Finish audios?
I haven't heard them. I'm afraid I just can't stomach anything remotely connected to NuWho or its writers anymore.
Burunman
Reactions:
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue May 26, 2020 12:33 am
Location: Glasgow

Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Burunman »

ClockworkOcean wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:04 pm
Zarius wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:19 pm
How would you rate his Big Finish audios?
I haven't heard them. I'm afraid I just can't stomach anything remotely connected to NuWho or its writers anymore.
I guessed from your signature LOL.

All I'll say is that it's unfair to lump the 96 movie in with the Fitzroy cunts, terrible as it may be, but I otherwise agree. :D

Jodie and Chinballs will be out on their arse soon according to Nerdrotic and the show will quite possibly be put on hiatus too. (Then again he is just a vile white supremacist according to Shilbee, our leading expert in female led films like 50 Shades of Grey, or as Paloma Faith called it as if feminism had never happened :lol: )
ImageImage
User avatar
Rob Filth
Reactions:
Posts: 5070
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:28 pm

Re: Who was the most insufferable NuWho Master?

Post by Rob Filth »

Burunman wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:55 am

All I'll say is that it's unfair to lump the 96 movie in with the Fitzroy cunts, terrible as it may be, but I otherwise agree. :D
The TV Movie is very borderline, isn't it?

It's sort of halfway there between being Classic and NuWho dirge. I'd argue that the only thing in favour of the TVMovie is that it's crassness can be excused on Americans being involved with it.

I'd actually go with Big Finish from about 1999-2005.
Rallying Against Rani's Repetitive Rhubarb and Rubbish.

Image
Post Reply